Date: Fri Feb 04 1994 18:11:50 From: Daniel Lyke To: Josef Wankerl Subj: Implementation musings Attr: PUBNET ------------------------------- JW> There's gotta be a really slick front end for all of this in the JW> end for anyone to use it... and I dunno how well a base "real" JW> operating system like UNIX will cut it. (LS, GREP, ETC.) Any JW> comments from the peanut gallery? Yeah, us information junkies who'd spend all of our time at the library if we didn't have a better information base available from home often have trouble understanding people who really don't care, and I'm not just referring to the computer people. We're gonna have to sell this to John IQ 75 Public if we're gonna make it a real community link, so a couple of possible approaches: 1. For the kids. When I sold computers I hate to tell ya how many times I was part of the following exchange: "I want to buy a computer" "What do you want to do with it?" "Well, the neighbors have one, and the kids use one in school." Unfortunately I wasn't dishonest enough to make a real profit off of these guys, which is probably why I'm not selling computers any more, but the fear factor of "If you don't have one, your kids are gonna fail" is a great motivator. 2. For the community. Unfortunately with this we're only gonna get the cognoscenti and the socially inept, and we probably have a good part of both already on FidoNet. Also, people who aren't part of cyberspace already can't grasp some of the effects it's having on its culture. 3. Improving business communications. Sick of messages that take as long as overnight to get there? Tired of skewed faxes with random dots that can't be easily incorporated into your own reports? Looking for a step towards the paperless office with archiving of communication possible without warehouses of files? 4. Entertainment. I'm not sure yet, but the Sierra network seems to be taking off. 5. We're the implementation team, let's leave this to the marketing folks :-) Dan --- msgedsq 2.1a * Origin: The Society Of Independent People (1:362/1203) Date: Sat Feb 05 1994 22:45:42 From: Greg Laudeman To: Josef Wankerl Subj: Implementation musings Attr: PUBNET ------------------------------- It was said: JW> "Huh?" :-) There's gotta be a really slick front end for all of this JW> in the end for anyone to use it... and I dunno how well a base "real" JW> operating system like UNIX will cut it. (LS, GREP, ETC.) Any JW> comments from the peanut gallery? The keenest of insights! You're totally right, Josef. The Imp Group's toughest task may be packaging the kewl tech so that the unwashed masses can use the system. This is the true aesthetic of media production: if in the audience's experience the technical aspects of the medium are totally transparent, then the producer has succeeded technically. The other side of this aesthetic is that the content must provide a meaningful experience to the audience. Technical success is nothing without a pertinent message. Lastly, the audience must be convinced that they have something to gain from participation in the media experience. The interest of the audience and the relevance of the message establish the pragmatic significance of the medium. This points out our most difficult task: to develop a knowledge-base--consisting of the "organizational memory" of our community and coordination tools--that have unique relevance to the members of our community. It is a curious characteristic of this medium (computer-mediated, interactive communications) that the audience, the content and the author are very nearly one and the same! In other words, to build our knowledge base, we must build our subscriber base, and vice-versa! I think the aesthetics of the Link will be at least as kewl as the techniques! --- MacWoof Eval:29Oct93 * Origin: Over under around and through (1:362/122.48@fidonet) Date: Tue Feb 15 1994 07:15:32 From: Robert Wilson To: Tech-Noir Subj: questions Attr: PUBNET ------------------------------- If I grokked this message correctly, Tech-Noir said: Tr> I have a few questions for you folks I hope you can answer. Tr> Tr> 1) What are yyou going to do for security? Security is a large issue, especially if commercial entities connect to this system. The amount of security primarily depends on two issues, money and easy of use. The technology we have been working with uses a user id and a password which must be known before a connection is made. This is based on Challenge-Handshake Authentication Protocol (CHAP) from RFC1334. This is pretty easy to setup, but doesn't provide for encryption. There has been talk of including encryption in the Point-to-Point Protocol (PPP) standard, using something like a public key system, but I don't know the status of this. Could anyone check out your private transmitions on your net? It will probably work like most systems, the sysops will have access to everything, users will have access to their private messages and public areas. Besides, if people want to check this net out, they will have to know how to decode PPP over asynchronous serial or PPP over ISDN or Ethernet carrying IP packets which everybody can't do without a bit of learning. How much is the government going to be involved in monotering the system? Who knows? I don't see why they would care. Of course if something illegal takes place on the net, then I would expect they would have access like they do with phone lines and the interstates with proper legal documents and all. 2) How are you going to make it appealing to joe schmoe on the street? How are you going to overcome the knee jerk reaction most people have about computers? This is another big issue. We hope to make public access terminals available in librarys or schools or malls or whatever for people to have easy access. The system will have a simple interface based on Internet standard applications. The stigma people have about computers will be hard to break. It's very similar to people that won't leave a message on an answering machine. Is it going to be as affordable as say cable? I hope access will be very inexpensive. I would like public acccess to be free. The amount charged for commerical services will not be decided by the net, but by the information provider. The net would probably charge rent for commercial entities on the net. These are kewl questions. Rob --- MacWoof 1.5.3 * Origin: "If it ain't broke... BREAK IT" (1:362/122.1@fidonet.org) Date: Fri Feb 18 1994 08:25:00 From: Holly Wolf To: Daniel Lyke Subj: Information Power (2 Of 2 Attr: recvd LIBRARY ------------------------------- DL> SK> The public library system will be undergoing radical change DL> SK> in the next 20 years, whether they individually understand this DL> SK> or not. Just as the BBS structure as we know it (our on-line DL> SK> community) is about to be forced into the "adapt or die" DL> SK> circumstance over the next 2-5 years. Technology knows no DL> SK> patience (Rush, paraphrased), or compassion. DL>"American Library" has occasional notes that shows that people are thinking DL>about it, and we've got a single librarian at the local community college DL>who's building a good collection concerning technology issues, but the publi DL>library and state university have very poor collections. DL> SK> When I try to talk to local librarians, I get either blank DL> SK> looks or outright hostility, neither of which makes much sense to DL> SK> me. DL>Just the fact that none of the professionals who read this echo have jumped DL>into this conversation says something to me. I'd be interested in reading DL>what those who do this for a living have to say on the subject. Ah, I've been lurking and enjoying this--life being too busy right now for a proper reply--but I have to answer if you think no librarians are interested! I'm a former public librarian (director of a small-town public library) and a present school librarian. Certified both ways; love both sides of the work. Wouldn't start the morning without checking the BBS. And I couldn't agree with you more. In American Libraries I have noticed that some communities have put their public libraries under the town Recreation Director. This is totally out of line with my vision of libraries, but I can see how it happens. Many--even most--public libraries currently follow Charles Robinson (Baltimore County) in the opinion that only popular reading really justifies its shelf-inches in a community library. Hence the multiple copies of best sellers and the endless racks of bodice-rippers. And, in fact, if a public library is to be judged (& funded) solely on the basis of circulation, they have a point. The idea is that other things can be sent for by inter-library loan from the central library in the system. However, people don't ask for the kinds of things they don't see. Even if YOU ask, the other 50 people necessary to justify the purchase of technical material don't ask; it doesn't occur to them that the public library does this (because, in fact, the public library doesn't). And, as a librarian, I know the feeling of reserve one has toward expensive paperbacks that will be out of date in less than 5 years. One thief could wipe out a $300 investment in 5 minutes! The bindings could give up under the sheer weight of the pages (indeed, nothing is more likely)! In fact, a number of titles are printed in short runs and may be out of print before the reviews are collected! And yet, I am convinced that it is the library's job to make this material available. Then it will be asked for. The public library is not fundamentally a recreational agency but an intellectual resource for people of all interests and levels of attainment. As for the electronic reference sources, I am convinced that they are coming. I do agree that far with Charles Robinson: space is expensive and must be conserved. Even more convincing, people are much more at home with the CD-ROM periodical indexes after one exposure than they are with the Reader's Guide type stuff after a lifetime. Why not? They get what they want, so much faster! That will come. As for the online resources, we're still arguing among ourselves how to pay for them. I don't know how that argument will come out. Public libraries are committed to service without charging the user: how else to allow the poor equal opportunity with the rich? But how are we to pay the costs of online availability? I don't know... But I do agree that public libraries will have to wake up, fast, to all of this or lose their mission. --- FreeMail 1.06b * Origin: Scholasticom, Palmyra, New York 14522 (1:260/615) Date: Sat Feb 19 1994 12:08:00 From: Singh Khanna To: Daniel Lyke Subj: Information Power Attr: recvd LIBRARY ------------------------------- Hi Daniel, DL>>concerning technology issues, but the public library and state DL>>university have very poor collections. DL>>A good telecommunications and CD-ROM strategy for the public DL>>library would probably save them a small fortune on some of the DL>>databases that they keep handy on paper, but even this isn't DL>>what I'd like to see. Agreed. I see a lot of libraries that don't even seem to be aware that the media is changing, but more, I don't feel the answer is CD-ROM or paper databases. DL>>The librarians at the public library spend a heck of a lot of DL>>time doing repetitive fact chasing, and even given current DL>>information and absolutely no changes in the type of media (ie: DL>>static words and not "multimedia" and whatever other buzzwords) DL>>and a little work on searching techniques these people could be DL>>advancing beyond the 500th "how many handgun murders were there DL>>last year?" With the coming "Information SuperHighway" (the basic components of which are actually already in place, e.g. InterNet, Cable, Satellite hookups, it just isn't working as a whole yet or run everywhere yet), there's no reason in the world why real-time database can't be created, and maintained, around the world. Database that include as *components* each and every book and magazine. That way, when a Librarian in Sacramento does a lookup on those handgun murders, broken down by gun manufacturer, that lookup is already catalogued and will be faster next time. The link is forged and doesn't need to be reforged. Additionally, new links can be created and maintained, which ultimately would result in the feasibility for highly complex multi-dimensional data reconstructions and simulations. It could revolutionize the way we view information by letting us see more, faster. DL>>I've just made it really clear that in all debates people have DL>>to document their arguments (we're pretty serious about this DL>>stuff in net 1:362, to the point of letters and phone calls to DL>>original sources to verify statements). Gives me a wonderful DL>>reading list. Hardcore debating rules, I haven't seen that in quite a while! Nice to see people can take the time to keep thier facts straight. DL>>Geez. Here when I said "history making books" I meant landmarks DL>>in recent technical publications. Hey now, it took me 12 years to find that compilation, I consider it to be a raving success story in the annals of book hunting !! I know what you mean tho about recent pubs, however, I'd still like to see a book list passed about. It'd be handy. DL>>Just the fact that none of the professionals who read this echo DL>>have jumped into this conversation says something to me. I'd be DL>>interested in reading what those who do this for a living have DL>>to say on the subject. You noticed that too... ... DL>>Point taken. I'm gonna have to look around 'cause I'm sure that DL>>these systems exist. That's what drives me nuts. You're right, they have to exist somewhere, but if so, then why aren't they being used?! I'm fairly well read, particularly in computer trends and tech, and I don't have these answers. It bugs me... -Singh --- SuperBBS 1.17-3 (Reg) * Origin: Nexus*Prime (707)437-6653 ...=ON THE AIR= (1:161/609) Date: Tue Feb 22 1994 08:27:06 From: Daniel Lyke To: Holly Wolf Subj: Information Power (2 Of 2 Attr: LIBRARY ------------------------------- HW> Many--even most--public libraries currently follow HW> Charles Robinson (Baltimore County) in the opinion that only Thanks for the name, it'll lend me undeserved credibility when I drop it in conversation :-). HW> popular reading really justifies its shelf-inches in a HW> community library. Hence the multiple copies of best HW> sellers and the endless racks of bodice-rippers. What bothers me most about a lot of this is that these are the books available new at the local Waldenbooks (yech) for $3.95, or lightly fingered at the used bookstore for $.95. So any portion of the populace that can't afford these books probably can't read anyway. HW> And, in fact, if a public library is to be judged (& funded) HW> solely on the basis of circulation, they have a point. And people who will denigrate Warner Brothers all day long for pandering to the masses are the ones who most support the lowest common denominator approach when it comes to buying books. HW> The idea is HW> that other things can be sent for by inter-library loan from HW> the central library in the system. HW> However, people don't ask for the kinds of things they don't see. Bingo. Right now I have to drive over 100 miles to get to bookstores that have texts I want to browse, which is one of the reasons that I'm working so hard to get more network connections available to Chattanooga. And frankly, at this point I don't care whether the library does it or not 'cause I'm involved in a commercial endeavour to do the same thing, but libraries are one of the few public services I can believe in, and I hate to see this happen. HW> And, as a librarian, I know the HW> feeling of reserve one has toward expensive paperbacks that HW> will be out of date in less than 5 years. One thief could HW> wipe out a $300 investment in 5 minutes! The bindings could HW> give up under the sheer weight of the pages (indeed, nothing HW> is more likely)! I'm not even thinking of the paperbacks, as most of those are targeted towards specific machines and come with diskettes (which are a different sort of accounting hassle) and, as you said, are superceded in 6 months anyway. But there are a bunch of hardcover technical books that are valuable for their historical perspective as well as for their immediate information, and have lasting value. (This, obviously, precludes buying any technical book with "Modern" in the title.) HW> In fact, a number of titles are printed in HW> short runs and may be out of print before the reviews are HW> collected! And yet, I am convinced that it is the library's HW> job to make this material available. Then it will be asked HW> for. This I don't understand. My S.O. is the head of children's for the local system, and she's waiting on reviews on books that she's seen and knows are good, but for some reason the system needs the approval of reviewers that she thinks are generally awful anyway in order to buy. In technical fields, I could put together a local advisory group that could spend the dollars that are spent in a way that would really excite my peer group in seconds, yet they rely upon the reviews of publisher financed magazines for information. As a published author in my field (journals and periodicals only), I've been called upon by publishers to do internal reviews of proposals, and I can't believe what they're accepting in an effort to be the 47th on their block to publish a book because it's hot right now, and will be for the next 4 months. But, I'm digressing... HW> The public library is not fundamentally a recreational agency but HW> an intellectual resource for people of all interests and HW> levels of attainment. Hear, hear! Underscore the "_intellectual_". HW> As for the online resources, we're still arguing among ourselves HW> how to pay for them. I don't know how that argument will HW> come out. Public libraries are committed to service without HW> charging the user: how else to allow the poor equal HW> opportunity with the rich? But how are we to pay the costs HW> of online availability? I don't know... I think that as we come to larger availability of online databases the costs will drop commensurately. Pulp novels are cheap because there's a market for 10 million of them, technical books are expensive 'cause they're printed in batches of 5,000 in costly bindings. If we can bring the price of technical information down by making the publication costs nil, just paying for the royalties, we'll be well within the price range of renting paper from Baker & Taylor. HW> But I do agree that public libraries will have to wake up, fast, HW> to all of this or lose their mission. And after little over a hundred years, too. Thanks for the post, we agree on a lot, and you've given me much food for thought. Dan --- msgedsq 2.1a * Origin: The Society Of Independent People (1:362/1203) Date: Tue Feb 22 1994 08:55:02 From: Daniel Lyke To: Singh Khanna Subj: Information Power Attr: LIBRARY ------------------------------- SK> Agreed. I see a lot of libraries that don't even seem to be SK> aware that the media is changing, but more, I don't feel the SK> answer is CD-ROM or paper databases. CD-ROM is a start, but I'm becoming spoiled by linked databases (I use gopher when I can steal computer time, am familiar with WWW and HTML, and love the concepts of Xanadu) and up-to-date information. I can't afford to have all of the references I'd like on-line, but if I could link my users to other places that would have them, and vice-versa, I'd be pleased. SK> With the coming "Information SuperHighway" (the basic SK> components of which are actually already in place, e.g. InterNet, SK> Cable, Satellite hookups, it just isn't working as a whole yet or SK> run everywhere yet), there's no reason in the world why real-time SK> database can't be created, and maintained, around the world. SK> Database that include as *components* each and every book and SK> magazine. That way, when a Librarian in Sacramento does a lookup SK> on those handgun murders, broken down by gun manufacturer, that SK> lookup is already catalogued and will be faster next time. Yes. Or even that those magazines are links to articles that people wrote and asked for inclusion. I'm afraid, however, that the vision of the "Information Superhighway" in the minds of our political leaders is more a vision of publishers and consumers, much the way that broadcast is now. I hope that I'm wrong. SK> Hardcore debating rules, I haven't seen that in SK> quite a while! Nice to see people can take the time to keep thier SK> facts straight. An aside: We had one person fake a reference, we think. Couldn't find it in the NUC, although we found the alleged authors separately collaborating on other books, and it was published in the days of SBNs, so I couldn't be sure if the check system was the same (the number didn't check under the ISBN system). The local libraries couldn't find anything but passing references on SBNs, so if you (or anyone else) have any information on the format of SBN numbers (as distinct from ISBN) I'd be interested. SK> Hey now, it took me 12 years to find that compilation, I SK> consider it to be a raving success story in the annals of book SK> hunting !! I know what you mean tho about recent pubs, SK> however, I'd still like to see a book list passed about. It'd be SK> handy. Understood, and I have a couple of first edition Herseys, but I can't afford to have the good editions of everything I like. Dan --- msgedsq 2.1a * Origin: The Society Of Independent People (1:362/1203)