Flutterby™! : Pym Fortuyn

Next unread comment / Catchup all unread comments User Account Info | Logout | XML/Pilot/etc versions | Long version (with comments) | Weblog archives | Site Map | | Browse Topics

Pym Fortuyn

2002-05-08 15:35:22+00 by Dan Lyke 15 comments

More reasons I'm fed up with "journalism". Dutch politician Pym Fortuyn was shot and killed. Fortuyn was described in the U.S. (and bits of Canadian that I get) press as a "hard right-winger", a "Dutch le Pen".

Fortuyn's platform seemed out of place in the Netherlands, which has a reputation for liberalism. It was the first country to legalize gay marriages, regulate prostitution, approve and control euthanasia, and tolerate the over-the-counter sale of marijuana in hundreds of "coffee shops."

So far as I can tell, Fortuyn was in favor of all of these things, and a raving communist besides. The thing that earned him the label "right wing" was pointing out Islam thinks very poorly of homosexuals like himself, and that Muslim cultures tend to treat woemn very badly. He also noted that the Netherlands are overpopulated. And for this he's tossed into the same camp as Pat Buchanan? Adam Curry follows the story from a Dutch resident's perspective.

[ related topics: Politics Journalism and Media ]

comments in ascending chronological order (reverse):

#Comment made: 2002-05-08 15:46:08+00 by: Dan Lyke

While I'm pissing and moaning about the U.S. press: Pipe-bomb suspect liked punk, science:

...former classmates said Helder loved the grunge band Nirvana...

I don't know if Dylan's still reading this, but can we get an opinion on a genre for Nirvana[Wiki]?

#Comment made: 2002-05-08 17:09:42+00 by: Jack William Bell

I don't know about 'Communist'. I only know what I have read, but so far as I can tell Pym Fortuyn seems to fall somewhere between 'Libertarian-Socialist' and 'Anarcho-Syndicalist' in most of his political stances. I certainly agree that calling him 'Right-Wing' is an example of how bad the news media really is. Of course, why consign to conspiracy that which may more easily be blamed on stupidity...

I do think that Fortuyn's point about 'backwards cultures' is one that causes 'Progressives' to shudder. When you make cultural relativism one of the main pillars of your belief system you must then constantly turn a blind eye to the fact that some cultures just plain suck (or are at least anti-everything-you-believe-in). And you certainly won't like it when someone rubs your nose in this fact. Fortuyn did that. It probably made Liberals very uncomfortable, because honestly dealing with what he he had to say required them to think instead of shouting slogans...

The way I figure things, cultural relativism only applies to cultures advanced enough to share it as a value. But when the culture does not believe in 'live-and-let-live', does not share values of liberty and equality, and does not allow its members to change cultures for a better life, well... They are backward and should be seen as such. As to what you do with that knowledge, I need to think a lot more before I can say.

Jack William Bell

#Comment made: 2002-05-08 17:36:21+00 by: John Anderson

> can we get an opinion on a genre for Nirvana?

"Grunge" is probably a fair description, especially as the term is used in the mainstream press.

#Comment made: 2002-05-08 18:14:43+00 by: Dan Lyke

I always thought of grunge as a subgenre of pop, but maybe I'm back-projecting...

#Comment made: 2002-05-08 20:02:52+00 by: John Anderson

I've always considered "grunge" to be an offshoot of heavy metal, by way of "alternative" (as the term was used before it was repurposed as an synonym for "top 40"). But then again, I was never really a punk, goth, shoe-gazer, hair farmer, or member of any other sub-culture classified partially or primarily on music preference.

(Okay, I maybe coulda been an indie-rawk kid, but I never really had enough horizontally-stripped sweaters to qualify.)

#Comment made: 2002-05-08 21:21:18+00 by: Pete [edit history]

Nirvana was prominently featured (as a punk band) in some documentary (name escapes me) on the punk scene that the filmers were convinced was finally just about to go wide. I think their pick (and focus) was Sonic Youth.


Ahh:1991: The Year Punk Broke
This important tour film-documentary details a 1991 Sonic Youth European tour in which Nirvana--then a cult local band--was the opening act. Considering that just a few months after this tour Nirvana's massive mainstream breakthrough completely changed the course of popular music, the film has managed to document the fledgling seeds of a major turning point in rock history. Along with great punk performances from Nirvana, Sonic Youth, The Ramones, Dinosaur Jr., and Babes in Toyland, the film also gives us glimpses into the personas of the band members. Most interesting to some people may be the backstage footage of the ever enigmatic and now famously deceased Kurt Cobain.

#Comment made: 2002-05-08 22:55:52+00 by: Niels van Eck

A small.. but sensetive detail in Dan Lyke's orriginal article... the word "communist".

Pim Fortuyn was a marxist, years ago... back then he was active in the "PvdA" political party (dutch socialists, 'labor' party).

In this context, I think Dan means "Collumnist". Pim wrote articles for several magazines and newspapers in Holland over the past years. That's where it all started.

#Comment made: 2002-05-08 23:04:44+00 by: John Anderson

I don't know that I'd call Sonic Youth "punk"; I certainly[Wiki] wouldn't call Dino Jr. "punk". The Ramones were punk, sure, but Babes in Toyland (if it's the band I'm thinking of) were sort of fringy metal/alternative -- not really what I would call "punk" either.

I mean, if you lump all those bands into "punk", "punk" pretty much loses any use as a distinguishing term. Superchunk would be "punk". Alice in Chains would be "punk". Hell, Motley Crue would be "punk".

#Comment made: 2002-05-08 23:16:41+00 by: Dan Lyke

Actually, I should have been more specific, I did mean Marxist. Blame it on the U.S. press's distortions [grin]. Although from my libertarian perspective calling almost any politician is a safe bet.

But in terms of what little I can glean of his current politics, I think he was probably a better candidate than many of those I've held my nose and voted for. Speaking of which, the Governor's race in California is going to be very, very ugly.

#Comment made: 2002-05-08 23:17:58+00 by: el punzatore [edit history]

why do you believe mr. curry more than the media? mr. curry is biased since he openly applied to become a member of pim's party. (http:// www.linklust.com/?comments=432)

#Comment made: 2002-05-08 23:24:25+00 by: Pete

I think Babes in Toyland would have kicked your ass for calling them metal.

#Comment made: 2002-05-08 23:42:19+00 by: John Anderson

Pete: maybe; I'm admittedly not terribly familiar with Babes in Toyland, and it's very possible I'm mixing them up with some late 80s hair band.

While driving home from work, I realized that part of my confusion with calling bands "punk" is because the word is overloaded, very similar to the way "Jewish" is overloaded. When you say someone is "Jewish", you can be refering to their religious beliefs, or to their ethnicity. Similarly, when you say a band is "punk", you can be talking about the style of music they produce, or about their general aesthetic.

Nirvana didn't play punk music (IMO); they did have a very punk aesthetic.

Now, I don't know if that made sense to anybody other[Wiki] than me...

#Comment made: 2002-05-09 00:01:05+00 by: Dan Lyke

el punzatore, I believe Mr. Curry more than the media because he agrees with every Dutch person I've heard interviewed so far on the matter. And because the U.S. media is gradually coming around to report the things that Adam Curry has been saying.

John, makes perfect sense to me. I'm not sure where bands like Green Day, which came from punk roots, but really always wanted to be a pop band, fit in.

#Comment made: 2002-05-09 01:46:53+00 by: Pete [edit history]

The Babes:

#Comment made: 2002-05-09 13:24:38+00 by: DaveP

Just to further digress, there's more on Babes in Toyland on TCPunk, and for what it's worth, in the 80's they were part of the punk scene here in Minneapolis.