Flutterby™! : Girls gone wild

Next unread comment / Catchup all unread comments User Account Info | Logout | XML/Pilot/etc versions | Long version (with comments) | Weblog archives | Site Map | | Browse Topics

Girls gone wild

2004-10-12 20:37:56.725231+00 by Dan Lyke 21 comments

Oklahoma Republican Senate candidate warns of lesbianism in the schools. Republican Tom Coburn

...says a campaign worker from Coalgate told him that "lesbianism is so rampant in some of the schools in southeast Oklahoma that they'll only let one girl go to the bathroom. Now think about it. Think about that issue. How is it that that's happened to us?"

Whoah. That's really hot! Yeah, "how is it that that's happened to us" indeed, and what can we do to recreate the experience elsewhere?

More to the point, what sort of political party would still be supporting someone with that loose a grasp on reality?

(Meta: woohoo! The topic picker nailed it first try!)

[ related topics: Children and growing up Politics moron Current Events ]

comments in ascending chronological order (reverse):

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-13 03:19:00.334803+00 by: Larry Burton

I've been spending a little time in Tulsa here recently and that place actually makes Chattanooga seem like a bastion of liberalism. The article doesn't surprise me. Last week I was listening to a local talk radio show on my way to my customer's site and they were all up in arms because the local school systems sent a few teachers to a seminar on Islam. They are claiming that the schools will next be promoting Islam and getting the students to practice Islam.

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-13 03:33:39.739331+00 by: Diane Reese

I'm afraid that an awful lot of people in the US are just plain ignorant. It's enough to make me ashamed to be an American sometimes.

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-13 14:27:26.420546+00 by: ebradway

After climbing the high point in Oklahoma (1200 ft from the New Mexico border), we drove across the state to OK City. We were astounded at just how conservative and bland a city of that size could be. I'll avoid OK at all costs now...

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-13 16:36:23.015027+00 by: polly

"how is that this has happened to us?" kids aren't afraid of authority. they have "rights". they can sue the principal, teacher, school system, thanks to our judicial system and money hungry lawyers. sounds like the school admins are afraid to use their authority to "clean house". kids with no morals, no respect to selves or others, no respect for authority, gee, i wonder how THAT happened?

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-13 17:49:15.224968+00 by: mvandewettering

"lesbianism is so rampant in some of the schools in southeast Oklahoma that they'll only let one girl go to the bathroom."

Which girl? What do all the rest of them do? Must be hard to be a lesbian when you have to pee.

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-13 19:56:51.331417+00 by: ebradway

Um, Polly, are you saying that these girls are lesbian simply because they aren't afraid of authority? Are you saying that people with a healthy fear of god and a respect for school principals are guaranteed to be heterosexual? I wonder if there are any homosexual school principals? Does that mean they don't respect themselves?

The question isn't "how did it happen", the question is, really, "why is it such a big deal?"

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-13 22:00:34.452785+00 by: Dan Lyke

And even more to the point, "how likely is this really?" Frankly it sounds like the guy had a wet dream and is sense of self-loathing has transferred that to his shakey grip on reality.

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-13 22:14:47.845234+00 by: flushy

The next step of course is to install "surveillance" cameras in the girls bathroom.. in order to protect their innocence of course.

And collect that $19.95 per subscriber...

He's really working for the on-line porn industry!

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-14 00:29:24.044965+00 by: polly

lesbianism is NOT brought on as an act of rebellion against authority...it's something that i don't make critical remarks about...my thought was that the politician made it sound like the lesbians were making it hard for a single girl to go to the restroom without some act of violence...then again, after reading everyone's thoughts, maybe the politician is afraid there is some hanky panky going on. which sure doesn't stop the other kids from having sex in the school house! happens all the time...kids get in a secluded hallway, door way, they are going to do something if that is what they are bent on doing, be it straight or gay. so far all we've had to deal with is boy meets girl in stairwell for a little fun...for him.

and i did NOT say anything to the effect of "healthy fear of god and a respect for school principals are guaranteed to be heterosexual"...yeah right...however, respect for the principal might make a teacher's job a LOT easier. homosexual principals? probably, just haven't heard of any. i know we have some gays & bi's teaching. it isn't advertised.

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-14 09:45:29.301825+00 by: meuon [edit history]

From my point of view, most girls and women ARE a little on the lesbian side all the time.. They hug, they kiss, they go to the bathroom together, they snuggle up on sleepovers.. on the couch.. on vacation (Pic is Nancy and Jen). This is NORMAL behavior for most women.

These people are warped by too much influence from SouthEastern Oklahoma fundemental preachers.

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-14 14:33:53.216915+00 by: Shawn

Whaaa??! "Violence"? Why is it that any whiff of sex - especially minors and sex - especially gay sex - especially minors and gay sex - suddenly conjurs thoughts of violence? Oh, that's right, because society/the press/religion has conditioned us to it. Shame on me Citizen 45893 for thinking otherwise.

boy meets girl in stairwell for a little fun...for him

And, let's not forget, potentially for her as well.

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-14 16:03:04.296324+00 by: ebradway

polly: I apologize if I misread your comment. It's one of the dangers of discussion boards like this. However, is it your opinion that respect should be granted completely to someone in authority, like a school principal? I was taught as a kid to show respect for adults and also found that I could get what I wanted easier by subjugating myself to authority figures. But the more I got to know most of my school principals, the less respect I tended to have. And there are many principals who bolster their own low self-esteem by demanding unwarranted repect of the students. And that teaches a kid to disassociate true respect from authority.

And what is the connection with morals? You can be a very moral person and have no respect for authority. I think that was Thoreau's point as well as the underlying message of Socrates when he accepted his punishment.

meuon: I don't think the issue is that girls and women are a little on the lesbian side, I think boys and men are a lot on the homophobic side. I remember it used to be perfectly natural for me to hold hands with a male classmate walking down the hall at school when I was in Kindergarten but by the time I was in 6th grade it was strictly taboo. Women just never receive the macho conditioning that make guys think it's not OK to touch one another.

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-14 21:32:24.902624+00 by: polly

ebradway: i teach in middle school. our principal is a very fair and kind man to all the students and his staff. we are fortunate in that we do NOT have a dictator. i can't say enough how lucky i was when he hired me straight out of college. i hear sad stories from colleages (art teachers) who have NO support from their administrators or any help with getting materials to teach with. i remember my middle school principals with kind thoughts, they were very nice and fair to all. however, high school was definitely a different story. i couldn't stand my high school principal, he sucked up to the rich kids and screw you if you were not in the "clique". unfortunately, he ended up on the board of education. FORTUNATELY, he finally retired! yay!!! i digress....

i don't know if you have school age children but our middle school kids don't respect anything or themselves. we are raising these kids, their parents drop them off at school and disappear. we are having to teach them how to be polite, how to ask for something NOT demand it, how to respect others and themselves plus try to get them to learn something. AND yes, our principal deserves respect, he has earned it, he goes out of his way for our school and our students. i don't know about other states, but tennessee SUCKS when it comes to making education a priority. principals and teachers are fighting tooth and nail to provide QUALITY education for our students. i don't think our superintendent is doing the best he can, but that is another story. i know that my school has awesome teachers who have proven that they are *highly qualified*, myself included. we have met every requirement that the state has issued without the state giving something back to education, such as new text books, modern/upgraded technology, new desks, materials/budgets to work with. on average a teacher spends at least $650 to $1000 a school year out of THEIR pocket to provide teaching materials for their classroom. wouldn't that earn a little respect from kids? nope. they don't care, they don't want to be there. they are only at school because our school social worker is making them show up otherwise their parents would go to jail.

the moral thought? i guess i was thinking of sex in the stairwell and the thought "do unto others as you would have others do unto you"? translation: talk nice to the teacher and she talks nice to you :>

shawn: sorry, shawn, the girls who are having sex in our school (not a majority) are doing it for prestige and attention with whoever is the flavor of the moment. these are 6th, 7th, 8th graders following their hormones.

meuon: you are EXACTLY right!

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-15 14:59:27.244481+00 by: Shawn

polly; which provides absolutely no basis for determining whether or not any of them are also enjoying it.

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-15 15:47:43.361247+00 by: ebradway

polly: Let me preface by thanking you for teaching in the public schools. I know we started off on the wrong foot but you won't find a bigger advocate of the public school system than myself. I am a product of the public schools and fought my ex-wife tooth-and-nail when she decided to take our daughter out of Chattanooga School for Arts and Sciences and put her into Montessori World of Children. I won't go into MWC too much because it gets a little close to some other readers here, but the issues of demanding respect are taken to an extreme there. Now she's at Normal Park and is much happier.

I also experienced problems myself of school administrators who strutted the halls like a proud cock and did little to earn the respect of the kids (especially in high school). I got to experience 9th&10th grades in an inner-city school in Texas where white kids were a minority. We had a female, hispanic principal who wasn't much over 5 ft tall. She kept the school and the kids running great because she managed to develop a mutual respect between the kids and herself (and the teachers). I then moved to Virginia, in a small town that supposedly had much higher than average standardized test scores. I was shocked how the kids there were treated like they were in elementary school - given no respect at all. Of course, they had no respect for the administration either - but things managed to run smoothly because the kids were homogenous (two black kids, one asian, no hispanics out of 800) and most of their parents were Air Force officers or NASA engineers.

In a related forum (a mailing list Dan runs), I brought up what I think is the biggest issue our society has to deal with and what I think should be done about it. It's primarily this: parents are driven by consumerism (or poverty or some other issue) to the point where raising their children is no longer considered an important accomplishment in life - something worthy of great effort and expense. It used to be natural that your focus in life was raising your kids, but now we let Nintendo and MTV raise the kids while we work 80 hours a week to pay for the new SUV. What I think needs to happen is that our national resources that are currently being used to kill Iraqis should be put into the schools to make it possible for our teachers and administrators to have the resources they need to teach the next generation how to love their children. If we don't, we'll be heading into the 'Brave New World' indeed.

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-15 16:05:35.108432+00 by: Diane Reese

I've been thinking back, and I don't think I can recall a single principal from any of the schools I attended. They were just complete non-entities: there was no strutting, nor earning respect, nor anything, really. They were so invisible as to have made no impact whatsoever on my consciousness. I guess from what I'm hearing here that most students know who their principal is, and care to some degree. This is a new thought for me, although I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by it.

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-15 17:24:28.422565+00 by: baylink

I remember *all three* of my principals. Amusingly, I can't put names on them at the moment, but all three (elementary, JH, tech HS) stand out in my mind, for different reasons.

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-15 20:34:30.734167+00 by: polly

ebradway: woohoo! thank you for what you said. your last paragraph about parenting issues, where government should put the money, SO TRUE, SO TRUE! i'm going to normal park next week for a meeting with local art teachers after school. i'll be interested to see how things have changed since i was last there in the spring of 2001. after i graduated in 2001 i did a little substituting before going to florida to teach art at the leesburg center for the arts. i had a 2nd grade class. when i FINALLY got through the day I FELT SHELL SHOCKED!! THEY DON'T PAY ELEMENTARY TEACHERS ENOUGH MONEY! those kids HAD to be on lithium or SOMETHING. they were off the chain. no way will i teach in an elementary school. now, normal park is a magnet school. i'm sure things are different there. i'm looking forward to finding out, lol.

shawn: i DON'T want my 6th, 7th, 8th graders enjoying sex at school :< i especially don't want my kids coming to school pregnant...which happens. i want these kids to learn something that can help them when and if they graduate. i want to give them something that they can carry with them into the adult world. no sex, no talking about sex, concentrate on the job of getting an education.

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-15 23:10:47.513254+00 by: ebradway

Polly: I thought we'd agree. And I'm beginning to see your point about 6,7,8 graders having sex. But I think we are fooling ourselves by thinking that not talking about sex will keep it from happening. I believe just the opposite is true: if you don't teach the kids about safe sex before they start having sex, then you will get more pregnant kids and more kids with STDs.

But I also believe that it all boils down to the original problem of the parents really putting the effort into parenting their kids. When I was in school, I remember how much my self-esteem seemed pegged to the opinions of my peers. I look back on that time with disgust and wonder how I managed to survive. Kids need to be instilled on a daily basis with the idea that they are good, worthy people and that the style jeans they wear or who they date is probably the most insignificant aspect of their life at that time. Parents are doing it, so the teachers are all we have left. That's why public education is so important. There are so many kids that basically get the shaft by their parents and if they don't learn how to be good people from other good people who care, then they'll grow up and have lots of kids and treat them the same way.

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-16 15:33:24.1323+00 by: polly

my school allows the "Why kNOw" abstinence program to come and talk to our students about abstinence from sex, STDS, and sex education. the first time i listened in on a meeeting i was shocked. i learned things I DIDN'T know, lol. i think what impressed me the most was how many sperms are created DAILY. that was a kicker, lol. and eventually they all have to come out, hence, wet dreams

our kids have slang words that refer to the sex *act*...slammin' is one. teachers have to stay current what the new slang is, otherwise, the whole class would be discussing who was slammin' who and teacher wouldn't have a clue as to what was going on.

but, i love my job, i love these kids, and i love middle school. there is NEVER a dull moment :>

#Comment Re: made: 2004-10-19 02:16:22.708961+00 by: Shawn [edit history]

I knew who all my principals were, although - except for elementary - they were mostly just figureheads from our point of view. The assistant principals were the ones who had direct, and usually derogatory, relationships with the students.

ebradway, you are 100% correct. That's why I and my wife chose not to have children - we recognized how important and involved the task of raising them is, and were honest enough to admit that we weren't interested in that particular bundle of responsibility.

I don't think continuing to shovel this responsibility onto teachers is the right answer, however. Somehow we need to get our society to a place where 1) we recognize and accept that raising children well is a massive job, and 2) that if we're not willing (or able) to follow up on that commitment then we shouldn't be having kids.

You touch on a number of factors that influence the currently screwed-up state of parent-dom in our society. I would also add "a cultural conditioning that one is expected to have children, disascociated from recognition of the realities that follow such a decision".

Having children is a choice - a fact that escapes many in our society. (My sister in-law, for example, was completely stupified by our decision - the thought that we could actually choose on the matter having never in all her life entered her mind.)