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2005-07-24 05:11:05.217732+00 by Dan Lyke 12 comments

Man killed by London police not connected to bombings. This is for all of the people who are asking why we're not profiling more: dark skin isn't proof of guilt.

And, like every needlessly confiscated set of nail clippers, this is a security failure.

[ related topics: Law Enforcement ]

comments in ascending chronological order (reverse):

#Comment Re: made: 2005-07-24 16:06:03.575615+00 by: Larry Burton

Dan, you are correct is saying that dark skin isn't proof of guilt but failing to stop when ordered to do so by the police isn't a smart move either. I'm not saying the police were justified in shooting the man but I don't know enough right now to fully understand what did happen.

#Comment Re: made: 2005-07-24 21:41:25.578015+00 by: Shawn

Still, it seems to me that Britain's new "shoot to kill" policy is a bit extreme:

Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him about five times in the head and torso.


[Mayor] Livingstone drew a hard line before the mistake became clear, declaring that anyone believed to be a suicide bomber faced a "shoot-to-kill policy."

I have two problems with this: 1) It makes police judge, jury and executioners, and 2) it imposes the [ultimate] penalty based purely on suspicion.

#Comment Re: made: 2005-07-25 12:28:57.674233+00 by: DaveP

Maybe it's just me, but as much as it rankles to be stopped, when the police yell "Stop! Police!", I figure a guy oughta stop.

There's a lot more out there covering the same ground, but if you think you're dealing with a suicide bomber who has jumped the turnstile and tried to get onto a crowded train after having been ordered to stop, what else do you do?

The cops screwed up big time by pinning him to the ground first, and then shooting him in the head. If he'd been an actual suicide bomber, he would have gone kaboom when they pinned him to the ground. They screwed up, and compounded the problem by executing him.

But I also think that Menezes was either criminally stupid or trying "suicide by cop."

#Comment Re: made: 2005-07-25 13:35:41.629824+00 by: topspin [edit history]

I haven't seen a definitive answer as to whether ANY of the officers chasing and yelling "Halt!" were uniformed or not. I have read he was followed by plain clothes officers onto a bus, first, before being followed into the Tube station. If NONE of the folks shadowing him initially, then eventually chasing him were in uniform, there's some reasonable explanation for his "like a scared rabbit" flight.

In the horror that is currently London, does a dark skinned fellow like de Menezes stop when ordered to stop by folks in civilian clothes trusting that they are the authorities or run believing they are a group of losers out for "justice" in the streets?

Would that de Menezes had gotten his ass whipped by a group of idiotic, marauding Londoners looking to vent their frustration on someone of dark skin, but instead he may have been executed by the police essentially because he ran from a group of "civilians" chasing him. Given the situation, I might have acted in a similar manner..... from both de Menezes and the police perspective, how about you?

In the end we must blame the terrorists, ultimately, for this death also, but we need to reasonably and honestly assess why de Menezes last moments went down the way they did.

#Comment Re: made: 2005-07-25 13:52:54.282412+00 by: ziffle

Live in the same building as terrorists; wear a heavy overcoat in the summer; don't stop whn told to by authorities; do all this during 'terrorism summer days'; = bad news. I feel sorry for the boy, but sorrier for the 80 people who died the previous week.

<emotion> Again: I hate Islam. Fuck them. Fuck Mohammad. We must wipe them out; its not peaceful; they are crazy and must be dealt with violently. Who lets them into the country? It took hundreds of years for the violent Christians in Europe to settle down and enjoy secular life, I am not prepared to wait that long for these Muslim screw balls. </emotion>

#Comment Re: made: 2005-07-25 15:10:46.061078+00 by: Dan Lyke

Everything I've read indicates that the officers involved were in street clothes. But I'm not finding a consistent story anywhere. I've read "sweatshirt" and "bulky clothes", I've read his visa had/hadn't expired, I've read that he jumped the turnstiles (yeah, I think that's a shooting offense) and that he'd paid...

However, all seem to agree that he was shot only after he was restrained.

Right now I'm with Topspin's interpretation: Five guys have been following him from his apartment building, start screaming at him, he breaks over the turnstiles to where he expects that either there'll be a good police presence to save him or he can get on a train ahead of them.

#Comment Re: made: 2005-07-25 16:03:31.316114+00 by: Shawn

I don't get it either, but we have lots of people around here who normally wear heavy black coats during the summer. It's an extension of the geek & goth cultures that thrive in the Microsoft corridor.

And would anybody really expect him to know he was living in the same building as terrorists (assuming he wasn't connected with them himself)?

#Comment Re: made: 2005-07-26 12:39:22.064766+00 by: polly

the word stereotyping comes to mind....dark skin/instant guilt. in the south young black men & women are looked at with suspicion even in this 21st century of mondern enlightenment. there have been many instances that police officers (usually black officers) will go to community centers and talk with young black teens and young adults to "teach" them how to "protect" themselves when approached by a police officer. "don't run, hold your hands out/above your head, do NOT put your hands in your pockets...and so on". there are many unfortunate instances that a young black was shot because of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

then again....going back to london. i noticed while watching the CNN/HN spots on the london bombings that there were many muslims, looked like females/heads covered, walking around dazed or agitated. it crossed my mind that living in europe as a muslin just might not be a good thing right now. in fact, it would probably cause ME to change my faith to something safer like methodist or universalist or anything but muslin. i would still have my faith in the creator just not in some crackpot trying to take over the world or whatever the hell they are trying to do.

it also drives home the fact that terrorists will kill their own "for the good of the whole" or some shit like that....all in the name of "allah".

#Comment Re: made: 2005-07-26 13:26:04.101673+00 by: Shawn

Stereotyping indeed. There are plenty of terrorists who do their violence in the name of "God" too.

#Comment Re: made: 2005-07-28 02:34:52.907378+00 by: ebradway

It's interesting to note that the Baha'is have a tradition of women not changing their names when they get married because if the man is found out to be Baha'i, in some Muslim cultures, the entire family might be imprisoned. Almost all Baha'i religious rites revolve around the idea of hiding from persecution by Muslims while living in a hostile environment.

#Comment Re: made: 2005-07-28 13:14:26.838813+00 by: meuon [edit history]

The most useful part of my concealed carry permit and "CoP" classes was learning a smidgen of the perspective a cop has. It's tough. And I learned to 'Give Up' nicely, even when pulled over for stupid traffic stuff, my windows roll down and my hands stay above the dash. I would also wager that the cops try to identify themselves and he bolted, it sad that he ran, but I also ask myself 'what was his reason for running?'. The real failure may have been the cops, to properly identify themselves quickly, maybe they did and he ran because of it.

Ziffle, although I agree some (even most maybe?) Islam factions/people "need a killing", you are sounding Adolph-Hitlerish.

Sung to "Huey Lewis and the News:I want a new drug":

I want a new Messiah - one that won't make me kill.

One that won't make me crash a plane, or make me take a poisen pill.

I want a new Messiah - that won't scew with my head

One that won't make my bus blow up, or make my eyes too red.

#Comment Re: made: 2005-08-24 14:00:27.393767+00 by: Dan Lyke

Follow up:

CCTV footage shows that Mr de Menezes was wearing a thin denim jacket that could not conceal a bomb, and he was not carrying a bag. Far from running from police, he did not realise that anyone was following him and even picked up a free newspaper before using his season ticket to pass through the barrier. He began to run only when he saw his train pull into the station.