Flutterby™! : Why can't our government just let people live as they want?

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Why can't our government just let people live as they want?

2008-04-17 20:09:02.100254+00 by ziffle 43 comments

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

When our goverment swoops in and takes hundreds of happy children for no reason its time to take stock. Polygamy is ok with me. What is wrong with our government? Has it been taken over by idiots?

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comments in ascending chronological order (reverse):

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-17 20:22:34.257482+00 by: Dan Lyke [edit history]

I, alas, see two sides to this issue. One is that polygamy should be legal. In fact, we should get the state the hell out of the marriage business altogether. And this whole thing came down because of one anonymous call, and the caller hasn't come forward.

The other is that having read Under The Banner of Heaven and seen the various problems that can arise in insulated communities, and looking at the history of Warren Jeffs and his complicity in child abuse and rape, this isn't about polygamy at all.

I'd ask those who'd be likely to hold this up as an example of abuse of government powers to be very very careful, 'cause this is not a community that anyone is going to take as an example of freedom or ethical behavior.

Edit: We should also look to this communities abuse of welfare and government aid systems before holding them up as examples...

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-18 09:30:35.148699+00 by: radix

I think it's too early to call. Let's see if the charges of forced marriage, statuatory rape and child abuse hold up.

WRT the presumption of interest of the children, it's hard. The smaller-scale but widespread actions of DFACS departments taking away children raises the same concerns. I'm not yet convinced that the proper legal balance has been found.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-18 11:05:08.143861+00 by: polly

if polygamy was equitable, i could see supporting polygamy. so far, it has been the MEN who were the polygamists. i have not seen anything about women having multiple husbands, which in my opinion sounds like a heavenly arrangement...a man for each day of the week! woohoo!

today's polygamist seems to be all about keeping his harem <spelling?> barefoot and pregnant including the 13yos.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-18 11:42:29.504177+00 by: topspin

ziffle, what with trolling being a time honored internet tradition, I can understand your motives here, but a man with your intellect surely can read/hear of the events in TX and realize the raid on the FLDS was about child abuse/child rape, not polygamy.

Now, the religious issue of what is and isn't child abuse came up recently elsewhere twice and is more interesting than polygamy anyway.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-18 13:12:36.549169+00 by: m

If the marriages are forced, or the "wives" are underage then the State has a significant interest, otherwise the State has no issues with their living arrangements. Another concern is the male children, who are reportedly put out of such communities shortly after puberty in order to maintain the male/female ratios.

But none of the 50 states have great track records in fostering children. Texas is pretty low on the list of the 50. Physical, legal, sexual and mental abuse abound in the child care system. Are these children going to be better off in such a system? Why were children over the age of five taken from their mothers when the abuse claimed is not pedophilia, but rather hebophilia? How much damage has the state done in ripping apart the lives of these women and young children?

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-18 21:01:49.883007+00 by: ebradway

polly: the new term for what you refer to is "polamory". Click here (NOT AT WORK!) for a quick introduction (rehashing an old post)

ziffle: have to agree with topspin. This isn't about polygamy - it's about abuse. One of the reasons polyamorists avoid the term polygamy is that polygamy implies the abuse perpetuated a masculine-dominant relationship.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-18 21:05:30.46286+00 by: Dan Lyke

Wendy McElroy has the best rundown against the feds and Texas officials that I've read.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-19 13:08:46.854234+00 by: ziffle

Wendy says:

At this point, I should reiterate...I don't like these people -- that is, I don't like the polygamist men and women of the FLDS. I wouldn't have a conversation with them, I wouldn't have them in my home, I detest what they stand for. But that doesn't mean the State of Texas has the right to wipe its ass with their civil liberties. The precedents being set here (or attempted to be set) are truly horrendous...as horrible as anything I've seen, including Waco.

Me too. I certainly would never live under the set of rules they have believing in gods, and other lives and the like, but a free country is just that: free. And they have the right to live as they want. The issue is that they are different, and independent and the STATE does not like that. Next they will be against nudist resorts or porn or medical marijuana. We must guard against the power of the STATE. Our constitution is written for one purpose: to limit the power of the state. Lest we forget that we might be WACOd or NIFONGED.

Back To Dans home grown AK47 - :)

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-19 14:17:54.679317+00 by: m

"And they have the right to live as they want."

How can the marriage, forced or not, of a girl at menarche be justified? Or the dumping of boys at puberty? Or the beating (not spanking) of children. Just because a parent wants to live a life of breaking a child's bones, refusing to support that child until he/she reaches a reasonable age, or swapping underage adolescents for sex, doesn't make it ethically or legally acceptable.

That individuals choose to live in polygamy, polyandry or line marriages or polyamorous communities is clearly up to them. But children, like anyone else, have a right to be protected against some acts.

That Texas may have made up grounds for a warrant, when the real purpose was to break up a community whose private standards is a different issue. It is a substantiative and real concern here. That Texas, or any state, is likely to provide better care than parents who molest, beat and abandon children is certainly debatable. That the State has overreached here is without a doubt, as evidenced by their taking away prepubescent children and boys who are not even claimed to be at risk. But these are separate issues from the rights of children to protection from heinous acts.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-19 18:29:49.781961+00 by: polly

i read on msnbc the latest...seems the parents and children don't know who belongs to who. this sounds like there may be incest cropping up after the dna is checked. what a mess!

on the other hand, have you really looked at the women? there doesn't appear to be a "spark" of thinking on their own. They look cowed/timid. They have been trained/taught HOW to think and what to say, including the children while being interviwed. it was all about what "the profit told them". who's profit? the mens? yeah, let's allow a whole LOT of these polygamists start up communes across the nation. there's a visual...pregnant 13yo maybe younger and 12-13yo living on the streets because they were thrown out scattered across the nation. wonder why Children's Services didn't find them?

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-19 21:14:05.989306+00 by: topspin

polly, I think the look on the faces of the women in the FLDS looks similar to the look of some Church of God, Holiness, Church of Christ women. Severely patriarchal religions, depending on the "enforcement" of the religion, tend to attract/develop women who are submissive. It is, of course, sinful to be otherwise in some eyes. As for the DNA testing, I think the problem isn't that the FLDS folks don't know their family members, but they aren't going to talk to the outsiders about their family structure, obviously. It would be tantamount to an admission of illegality for a 20yo woman with a 55yo husband to claim a 5yo child as their child. These aren't unchaste, hedonistic, "free love" hippies, but rather HEAVILY moral, HEAVILY warped family units.

m, there's little doubt in my mind TX is trying to intimidate these folks into leaving TX and I have little doubt it will work. I've met, uncomfortably, some FLDS people (via hanging out near Hildale, UT during vacations to Zion) and in my experience they want nothing to do with the rest of society, publicity, nor the authorities. They'll leave, I would suppose, as soon as TX will let them.

The question is: where do they go? These folks are committed to breaking the law. This tradition isn't new. Brigham Young took wives at 15. Joseph Smith at 14. These people aren't going to abandon plural wives, nor young wives, as they believe doing so risks their salvation.

I'm seeing parallels here to Osama and to Eric Rudolph, two guys who represent the radicalized religious fundamentalists. I am hoping we won't see the FLDS move in that direction.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-20 12:09:48.375258+00 by: m

topspin, HEAVILY moral? Perhaps sadomoralistic. Morality has little to do with how one or more competent adults choose to amuse their anatomy in relative privacy, beyond protecting from unwanted children and other diseases.

Would we tolerate the practice of cliterectomy on children? Orchidectomy? Complete castration? Forced major skoptsy with a red hot iron?

Where do we draw the lines about strong personal belief when it involves another person even if that person is the relative or child of the actor?

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-20 13:52:06.721117+00 by: topspin

m, I'm in no way supportive of their brutality, but I was pointing out the DNA tests weren't ordered because these folks are hedonists. Living in the south and raised by devout Church of Christ parents, I'm used to the harshest elements of fundamentalism, including "spare the rod...." It is a culture I understand, perhaps better (or perhaps worse) than most.

Fundamentalism in religion or in programming involves forcing elements to behave at your whim. One doesn't note it as violence when one pokes numbers into memory and forcefully manipulates them because computers were made to do that. Sadly, some believe humans were made similarly.

Yes, I'll stand by heavily moral. Moral in the sense that these people actually believe both the plural marriages and the severe discipline are part of their salvation. Sick, yes, but moral.

I'm reminded of a story I heard in a Church of Christ sermon about a twisted young man who gouged his eyes out after lusting for a woman (re: this passage from the Bible) and how he was told, "The Church doesn't see that literally!" He shouted his reply, "Hypocrites!" The sermon was, of course, only partially sympathetic to the young man, but sit through a few of those sermons and one finds the FLDS almost sane.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-21 00:02:07.659381+00 by: m

Some believed that slavery, cannibalism, torture, murder and human sacrifice were ordained by one or another god -- that doesn't make the practices moral. Especially not when the surrounding culture has outlawed same.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-22 00:03:41.157206+00 by: ziffle [edit history]

FLDS mothers to Texas judge: Don't take away our nursing children

Now we find it was all based upon a bogus phone call. This kind of mind makes its way into government jobs, and instead they should be arrested and imprisoned. These LDS people have a right to be left alone. They are being Nifonged. They have a right to live as they want, pray as they want, raise their children as they want. What can we do to help them?

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-22 12:08:15.94999+00 by: polly

"what can we do to help them?" ziffle, doesn't it seem wrong to you that the men are using children for sex and having babies with them? How would you feel if your 50yo dad was having sex with a 13yo and kept her pregnant? At what point are we going to say enough is enough? Protect the children and send the mothers to a shrink!

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-22 14:45:53.991993+00 by: ziffle [edit history]

polly, this brings up an interesting issue; we all have our hot buttons. Yours may be this - you may wonder possibly that I could treat this abstrusely but not everyone feels the way you do. Rather than address the morality of your hot button, acknowledge that everyone has hot buttons; George Bush feels its ok to drop all our constitutional rights as long as he can fight a war; conservatives feel abortion trumps privacy and actual versus potential life; liberals thinks selfishness is awful especially if someone somewhere has not enough to eat.

So what if my hot buttons do not coincide with yours? Shall I break your door down and arrest you and your children?

No, our constitution was written to protect us from this sort of thing. If there is truely a problem that violates someones rights then there are ways for the state to bring evidence to a court FIRST and ask for an injunction. You do not sweep in steal all the children from Mothers arms and then try and put together a case.

Freedom means freedom, not only for my hot buttons.

Update: FLDS mothers, kids being moved from shelters to new locations throughout Texas When will they stop? What if they came to your home for the cause of the day?

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-22 23:41:01.14686+00 by: topspin [edit history]

ziffle, you're simply wrong.

The state of TX received a report of abuse and is investigating that report of abuse. The state acts on abuse reports all the time, I'm sure, and some are hoaxes. This one may be also, but the FLDS stonewalled the investigation. They gave misleading or no info to investigators; they refused to cooperate and gave the state no option but to take drastic measures.

The FLDS brought this on themselves. Perhaps they could have presented evidence debunking the claim, but they didn't. They could, since the investigation involves children, have been forthcoming about the alternative nature of their living arrangements and parenting, but they weren't. Polygamy IS NOT due cause for children to be removed from the home, so that's not the issue here.

I'll submit that ANY family would face the removal of their kids if they behaved like this. If someone presented a hoax about child abuse, a normal family opens up, welcomes the investigators, encourages their kids to talk, encourages everyone to tell the truth...... and the hoax quickly dies.

This situation "has legs" because the FLDS isn't being forthcoming and the state has a LEGAL DUTY to investigate the claim of child abuse. The state left these folks alone for YEARS, but when a call about abuse comes in about ANY family, the state needs to check it out. I'd wager LOTS of hoax calls come in and are quickly dismissed after a short investigation of a family. This claim would die too if the FLDS would simply explain its family structure truthfully.... that is, if that family structure doesn't involve child rape.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-23 00:13:08.37257+00 by: ziffle

topspin, whomever you are: so say you, but I do not agree; The FLDS has no duty to cooperate. They are entitled to their day in court with an attorney. In a moral system, the state must use the courts, not guns to deal with an issue.

Your entire comment is actually one of conjecture. "the state acts on reports all the time" so what? "FLDS stonewalled" so what? they are perfectly in their rights; "FLDS brought this on themselves" in whose opinion and so what? "a normal family opens up" so what?

Your inuendo and vapid arguments make no case; further you apparently fail to see that this is your hot button and you are willing to whisk away these peoples rights under the constitution as long as its your hot button.

And that is the entire problem; people are short sighted and willing to sacrifice liberty for security or 'hot buttons' as I say; and that makes you an enemy of freedom.

Funny here is a hot button NOT Oklahoma sheriff charged with using inmates as sex slaves he is out on bail but did they TAKE HIS CHILDREN AND WIFE AWAY FROM HIM? no because they are following the law.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-23 01:16:51.725795+00 by: polly

ziffle...my hot buttons are sex crimes & abuse against children & women and men who beat up on their wives/girlfriends. now,those kind of MEN i would love to point my glock at and shoot!

are you a wife beater or find little girls interesting? :{ your statements are NOT taking into account that those children have the right to not have sex with anyone until they are of LEGAL age. those OLD men are pedophiles and should be treated as criminals...just like the sheriff will be. by the way, i haven't read that the men of FLDS have been arrested.

the sheriff's wife probably met him at the door with her cast iron skillet and whopped him! i would, then throw him out.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-23 01:53:22.966635+00 by: topspin

ziffle, the FLDS got and will continue to get their choice of going to court over cooperating with those who were LEGALLY OBLIGATED to investigate the claim of child abuse. In the course of that investigation, the adults have LIED to investigators about ages, names, etc.

I'll grant you that you can be uncooperative with Child Protective Services when they are investigating, but when you lie to authorities about your age, the age of children, your name, the parents of the child, etc..... you arouse suspicion.

So what does TX have: a phone call alleging abuse and adults who are lying to investigators about themselves, their relationships to the kids, the ages of the kids, etc.

Again, the FLDS isn't being singled out here. They are creating problems for themselves. THEY are giving TX all it needs to keep these people in custody.

Ziffle, are you denying there's probable cause to hold these people when they are lying to investigators?

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-23 10:56:07.822618+00 by: ziffle

and this proves my assertion regarding hot buttons. further affiant sayeth not.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-23 15:29:29.555775+00 by: polly

so speaks the ignorant and blind.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-23 17:27:36.119764+00 by: fizzle

sounds like ziffle thinks child abuse and rape is OK as long as the neighbors don't hear.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-23 23:21:10.779689+00 by: Dan Lyke

fizzle, I think that's a stupidly unfair straw man.

I'm not leaping to the defense of the FLDS, but I think topspin summed it up well: The investigators have one piece of most likely fabricated evidence, and a whole bunch of people acting guilty.

If there's one thing the whole "war on terror" fiasco has shown us, in spades, it's that acting guilty in itself should never be treated as evidence of a crime.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-24 03:00:03.37489+00 by: ziffle

cough cough Confirmed: Fraudulent Polygamy Cult Tipster is Barack Obama Delegate

Apparently, she made the whole story of poor "Sarah" the abused child-bride of a 50 year old man out of sensationalist reports that she had read from anti-cult groups.

Most of those in the comments still defending the raid seem to focus on the allegation that "girls as young as 13 are married and pregnant". One of the FLDS lawyers I keep seeing on TV says that this is patently false, and the claime made by the state is not that there are "13 year olds" but a single allegation that one 13 year old was pregnant 10 years ago.

If that is true would it change your perception that there is some justification for tearing hundreds of kids away from their families based on a search warrant executed on false grounds?

In America it wasn't long ago that young women were married. My Pastor (Baptist) married his wife when she was 15 and his wife's mother was married when she was 13! I don't agree with marrying young, but at what point does you disagreeing with someone give you the right to exercise the power of the government to seize their children? ...


#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-24 13:54:17.426569+00 by: JT

Dan, My grandpa used to say "don't tie your shoes in a watermelon patch"

That phrase confused me for a long time, but when I became a policeman it didn't take long for it to become clear. The purpose of the phrase is that if you stop in a watermelon patch to tie your shoes, then walk away, you haven't done anything wrong. Later, if a watermelon is discovered missing, the only thing people remember is you squatting down in the melons. When a theft is reported or talked about among neighbors, there's only going to be the name mentioned of who was in the watermelon patch. Right or wrong has little value in our society, appearance of right or wrong is everything.

Sometimes you're not only responsible for what you do, but you become responsible for what it appears that you're doing. It's not a perfect system, but it can keep you out of some unneeded trouble. The appearance doesn't force you into guilt or innocence, but if there's an accusation of dealing marijuana by the white middle-aged jogger running down the street and an accusation of dealing marijuana by the young mexican guy standing on the corner waving down cars, who do you think is going to get the more thorough investigation? Is standing on the streetcorner and flagging down traffic illegal? No, but when there's an problem with drugs in that area, that guy is squatted in the watermelon patch.

Take into account a lot of allegations of police brutality that appear on the news. Most of the time it's utter bullshit, and investigations internally and by external forces show that the allegations are completely unfounded. Take, for example, Carol Ann Gotbaum, the daughter of a person of political interest in New York who died while in police custody. When the media thought the police had something to do with her death, they were all over it. It was in the newspaper, on television, and all over the internet. After lawsuits, investigations, and third party private investigators hired by the Gottbaum family, the police were found completely innocent. This wasn't put in the papers or in any internet forums where the topic was discussed. People didn't care about guilt or innocence, only that the police appeared guilty and that was good enough for their judgment.

If there's an accusation of child abuse, if there's allegations of underage girls being forced into marriage against the "one man, one woman" laws of Texas, there should be an investigation. If there's a continued danger during the investigation then those in danger have to be protected or moved from the situation during the investigation of this crime. Think of it in the same way as arresting someone and putting them in jail for murder before they're convicted. It's essentially the same thing in this case, measures have to be taken to remove someone from a situation (children) where they could be harmed or psychologically conditioned by those who may be guilty.

In the same respect, if someone is accused of murder and evidence is found supporting that claim in the initial investigation, that person is removed from society and placed into prison while the investigation continues and their charges can either be dropped or they can stand charges when the investigation is completed. This is to keep them out of society where further harm can be done to members of that society or to witnesses of the crime.

Also in the same respect, while it was being investigated, the policemen involved with Gottbaum were taken off of duty, out of the situation where further harm could be done in their capacity as a policeman while the investigation was done.

If there was a magic raygun to be used on people to find out instantly whether they had done wrong or right then this whole situation could be avoided, however I'm sure a lot of people would be up in arms about that too.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-24 16:11:38.942059+00 by: ebradway

In America, it wasn't that long ago when a man could beat his wife as long as the stick he used was no thicker than his thumb.

In America, it wasn't that long ago when women weren't allowed to vote.

In America, it wasn't that long ago when you could buy and sell people because of the color of their skin.

Unlike the solitary Zen monk, enlightenment does not occur in a single moment of zazen. Enlightenment comes to society in a gradual, interconnected unfolding.

An JT, the magic raygun, according to the Inquisition, was "kill them all and let God sort them out". We've come a long way, baby!

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-24 22:27:07.157821+00 by: Dan Lyke

Now that the original call has been revealed as a hoax by a mentally deranged person, I think it's clear that we need to "hurry up and get those kids back to their husbands." (from this thread)

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-25 15:45:49.791253+00 by: ebradway

Not sure what was going on that this church... Maybe a crank prayer?

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-26 10:48:09.990275+00 by: ziffle

First they destroy the family:

Parker also refuted CPS' description of an orderly, calm separation of mothers and children at the coliseum. He said it was "complete pandemonium." As the children, all younger than 5, figured out what was happening, they started screaming and CPS workers had to pry many away from their mothers. "This is inhuman. This is un-American," said Parker, who also said a civil rights lawsuit is possible. He also said CPS assured nursing mothers they would be able to take breast milk to their infants but, as of early Friday, had been given no information on where the children had been taken. They also were told sibling groups would be kept together. Thirteen children from one family were sent to five locations, he said.

Then they finish off the children:

Sometimes, foster care placements are made that are just as abusive, if not more so, than the home from which the child was removed. The Grand Jury learned of placements where sexual and physical abuse took place. There was even a case where the infant died.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-26 22:33:57.192622+00 by: ebradway

You know - it just may be possible that this was an enclave of people who believed in a simpler life free of the "sins" of modern society. There are many other such communities in the US (even in Tennessee): the Mennonites and the Amish are chief examples. The only real difference might be the practice of polygamy. Of course, the FLDS track record seem to point otherwise.

As for the abuses under the auspices of the CPS... It seems to be an issue of process improvement. The basic process of attempting to protect a child from an abusive situation is still relatively new and there are huge flaws in the system. There also seem to be many examples of people in the system resisting positive change.

But the basic problem of abuse still seems poorly understood. I think Queer Theory, especially concerning the dynamics of S&M relationships, eventually might paint a clearer picture of what is really happening in any abusive relationship.

There's also a better understanding of the difference in significance between physical and emotional abuse. More and more it seems that physical abuse might not be nearly as serious as emotional abuse. Given that, it may be more common that CPS commits acts of emotional abuse in response to physical abuse, resulting in a greater evil. Of course, there's also the problem that physical abuse is easier to recognize.

In the case of the FLDS, the most egregious abuse seems to be on the part of the state separating breast-feeding infants from their mothers. I haven't heard of any evidence where this action would have been even remotely necessary.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-27 06:13:41.746857+00 by: topspin

I think the state of TX is now in a legal "C.Y.A." situation. Since they've taken the kids (which I gotta agree with since the adults chose to lie about pertinent info concerning the kids) they have to be diligent in discovering and remedying any abuse.

If they don't and a child/adult leaves the FLDS claiming the state was told of abuse and did nothing, there's blood in the water for the lawyers. I'd not be surprised to see a person "leave" the church, sue the state for not acting on known abuse, then "choose to re-enter" the FLDS with the money. "Bleeding the beast" with a twist.

These folks have proven committed, shrewd, and contemptuous of society. They remind me more of the Manson folks than I would like: an intensely loyal set of followers and leaders who can manipulate and have manipulated those followers into a pattern of illegal behavior.

I dunno. Maybe a R.I.C.O. investigation? A pattern of child exploitation, perhaps issues with the misuse/fraud with entitlement programs, perhaps issues with ownership of businesses/land, a pattern of obstructing justice. Perhaps "the beast" should strike back and draw a little blood of its own?

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-27 08:32:47.310583+00 by: ziffle

And of course now they have started losing the children: child welfare authorities cannot account for two boys.

The adults have a duty to resist the government in any way they can. This includes lieing to them and not cooperating at all. In the end I see the FLDS members sueing each and every one of these government employees (could RICO be used for this?), and hopefully a prosecutor will step forward and put the government employees in prison as a warning to future Fascists.

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,"

Is it time to go to arms and start killing off the government employees who arrived with guns and stole your children? No, because we still have free speech, but if I was an FLDS member I might think so.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-27 14:54:12.432022+00 by: polly

who's to say that the "mothers" didn't make up the story about the missing boys just to create a bad press spot on this mess?

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-27 19:17:15.021227+00 by: Larry Burton

Polly, that would be bearing false witness against a neighbor. They aren't suppose to do that.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-28 11:25:23.412943+00 by: polly

larry, "they" aren't supposed to do a lot of things...didn't stop those men from having sex with kids.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-29 08:09:48.973646+00 by: topspin

DNA testing isn't going to be the friend of FLDS now that they've found multiple pregnant or parenting minor females, none of whom apparently are legally married.

Over half of the minor females between 14 and 17yo are either already parents or are pregnant. Lemme guess, ziffle will say, "teen pregnancies happen a lot in America. This proves nothing." Yeah, ziffle, when DNA points in the direction of some guys close to our age, SURELY.....SURELY at that point you will agree abuse has occurred? And remember, these are "celestial unions" arranged by the leaders of the FLDS. This is a pattern of child sexual abuse by the leaders of this church which continues beyond Warren Jeffs. It's easy to see: female children are not safe around these people. Period.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-29 11:50:11.908726+00 by: radix

Some information on how the 31/53 count is inflated in terms of illegality: http://www.volokh.com/archives...4_27-2008_05_03.shtml#1209434475

I think it's undeniable that CPS is relying on the negative image of polygamists to cover their excesses. The fact that they are overstating their findings seems to indicate that they are busy CYA'ing.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-29 18:33:56.835605+00 by: ebradway

I just saw another article discussing the number of 14-17 year-olds who were either pregnant (22) or already mothers (31). The FLDS spokesperson claims that at least 17 of those are over 17 but incorrectly categorized because they look younger.

Statistically, of course, this doesn't look good for the FLDS - even if 17 or even 20 are incorrectly categorized. What also doesn't look too good, statistically, is that there are essentially equal numbers of boys (196) and girls (197) under 14 - but in the 14-17 age range there are three times as many girls (53) as there are boys (17).

At this point, it's all speculation. The DNA will sort give more clues.

And I still do not see any valid reason to separate nursing infants from their mothers unless there was very obvious physical abuse of these infants.

Heck... Compared to some people... The FLDS look like absolute angels!

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-29 19:05:18.29089+00 by: Diane Reese

Think of YFZ Ranch as an institutionalized and community-wide version of the Austrian basement-captive abuse, but using mind-control instead of electronic-code door locks, and you'll probably be fairly close to correct.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-29 22:44:13.013618+00 by: topspin

Hmm.... statistically, given the figures for the 14-17yo women, one would expect statistically similar numbers of pregnant females in their 20s and 30s also, as the FLDS holds that sex is for procreation and the marriages need to be blessed with children. If only the young ones get pregnant, it further points toward a culture of men preying on young girls in the FLDS.

#Comment Re: made: 2008-04-30 00:40:09.068663+00 by: ebradway

topspin: Interest point...

Diane: I think you underscored my earlier point about emotional abuse being a greater ill than physical abuse. The mental and emotional abuse the FLDS women suffered was so great that, upon exiting their captivity, they still can't see the light. At least the Austrian children seemed to quickly realize that something was very wrong about their situation. The physical abuse of being kept in a basement with no windows wasn't as devastating on their psyche than the emotional captivity suffered by the young people at YFZ.